Detroit mulls taking Grosse Pointe Park to court over controversial blockade

Grosse Pointe Park Detroit border
On the Detroit side of the border.

Grosse Pointe Park’s decision to block a popular road at the border of Detroit with a farmer’s market may be a costly one.

A month after Motor City Muckraker revealed evidence that a new shed blocking Kercheval appears to have been built on Detroit property, Mayor Mike Duggan’s administration is considering whether legal action is warranted.

Detroit side of border. Photo by Michael Brouwer.
Detroit side of border. Photo by Michael Brouwer.

Detroit Corporation Counsel Melvin Hollowell told the Free Press that the shed “forms a traffic hazard.”

“Also, once a driver reaches the shed, traffic is diverted across a private parking lot and through a two-way alley — part in Grosse Pointe and part in Detroit, but it’s barely wide enough for one vehicle. So we are reviewing our legal options to remove the hazard,” Hollowell said.

Grosse Pointe Park blocked off the historic east-west street without ever consulting with Detroit – a decision that some Park council members now say they regret. The hotly contested issue drew the largest crowd in years to a Park council meeting this week as Grosse Pointe residents sounded off on the plan. Most opposed the blockade, saying it’s a symbol of division and intolerance.

Grosse Pointe Park attorney Dennis Levasseur said the Park is willing to work with Detroit on the dispute.

“If Detroit comes to us with any concerns, we’ll work with them in a collaborative manner,” Levasseur told the Free Press.

Grosse Pointe side of the farmer's market.
Grosse Pointe side of the farmer’s market.

But, he added: “Of course, we understand that Detroit has more pressing matters” and better uses for its “precious funds.”

Mayor Duggan has declined to comment as the city investigates.

The dispute is based on a notch in the border that juts east at Kercheval. The border also cuts into an alley where traffic is being diverted.

To build on Detroit property, Grosse Pointe requires the city’s approval, which was never sought.

During the winter, Grosse Pointe Park occasionally blocked the same road with mounds of snow.

Grosse Pointe Park has closed off at least six roads at the border of Detroit near Alter, and some of the remaining streets are one-way.

Steve Neavling

Steve Neavling lives and works in Detroit as an investigative journalist. His stories have uncovered corruption, led to arrests and reforms and prompted FBI investigations.

  • Shore Bound

    It seems the powers that be in GP Park are trying to make a pedestrian-friendly “downtown”, perhaps without doing enough consulting of their own citizens and neighbors. Kercheval only runs a short distance into Detroit before it is interrupted by the Chrysler plant property. What’s the big deal? It’s not like it’s stopping anyone from entering GP. I feel like the only people who should be upset are the business owners on the block, and only if they didn’t have a say in the matter. I think it would be cool if that few blocks was pedestrian only.

    • new_detroit

      It’s a big deal because Alter + Kercheval is a major access point into GP for many Detroiters. If they wanted to make the block ped-only, they’d have to block off both ends of the street, which would of course be a really bad idea just as blocking one is.

      • Shore Bound

        It doesn’t make those blocks pedestrian-only, but it does reduce traffic to make it more pedestrian friendly. I don’t really think they went about it in the right way (with seemingly little input from the public), but I can see what they are going for and I hope it works. It does not stop anyone from entering that neighborhood from Detroit. One block north of Kercheval is Vernor which is a one-way into GP Park from Detroit. I feel GP Park residents and Detroiters alike will benefit from a more vibrant GP Park downtown.

        • new_detroit

          I think the negative impact on accessibility will not help with the vibrant development of the area. I agree with you that better transparency into this project during the planning stages and input from the community would have been the way to go. As it stands, they made some questionable choices with an even more questionable methodology and I hope we can reverse the blockade’s construction.

          • tmda

            I’m not sure how much more transparent they could have been. The project involving the closing of Kercheval was introduced over 15 months ago:

            http://www.grossepointepark.org/images//council/Meetings/2013%20Minutes/cm2013-05-13_May_13.pdf

            While I’ll concede that perhaps the City should have communicated better with the citizens in the direct vicinity about potential added traffic in the area, I also place blame with citizens that don’t observe what their representative government is doing. You elect them to represent you and make decisions for you as a trustee in that representative arrangement.

            If no one tells them what they are doing is not preferred, why should they not enact the projects and actions they feel are in the best interest of the people they are representing?

            Perhaps if citizens realized their job in representative democracy does not end with voting, but staying informed of what their government is doing, there would be less of these situations, where people want to change something that could have been avoided in the first place if they spoke up beforehand.

            All that being said, this situation, in my opinion, is much better resolved with the two governments and the two groups of citizens collaborating on the development of the rest of the Kercheval/Alter area. Grosse Pointe Park has created a great opportunity for Detroit there, if anyone took a minute to look. Instead, everyone just wants to blame someone else, antagonize each other, and find some way to make the other side the ‘bad guy.’ Everyone needs to grow up.

          • new_detroit

            Key point: “City Manager stated its design will provide for through traffic. However, during construction it will be required to undertake a temporary closure.”

            Last I checked there was no way to go from Alter to Kercheval. I admit I haven’t been back for a couple weeks though, is it open now?

            If not, misinformation is worse than no information.

          • tmda

            Well, if you want to technical, you can turn east or west from Alter onto Kercheval. Haha.

            However, I assume you are talking about eastbound traffic on Kercheval east of Alter. From what I understand, the temporary situation involves using an alley and/or a residential street to get back to Kercheval after reaching the market stand area. However, I am of the understanding (from the City Council meeting last week), that a more permanent solution that will allow traffic to more easily regain it’s way to Kercheval will be studied and implemented.

            As someone who’s lived in Grosse Pointe Park for six years, I’ve only used Kercheval between Nottingham and Alter about five times. Traffic is very annoying in that area, so I’ve always avoided it. I’d prefer all street parking in the area was gone. It’s almost impossible to know if it is safe to drive across Kercheval without inching out into oncoming traffic when the street parking is full. Any efforts to reduce vehicles in the area is a welcome one, in my opinion.

            The City has bought additional land in the area (the southeast corner of Alter, from what I see in Council minutes), which looks like a perfect place for a parking garage or parking area. In that instance, there wouldn’t be much need to get back onto Kercheval for 90-95% of people. Park there, walk to wherever, and walk back to the car.

            This is obviously Phase I of a larger plan to create a downtown pedestrian commercial district. I’m going to hold judgement on the merits of the plan until it’s finished. For all anyone knows, this could be the turning point for that area in Grosse Pointe Park AND Detroit.

          • new_detroit

            I’ve only lived in Detroit a few months but was already using the blocked intersection 4+ times per week. It was a convenient way to get to GPP which is now a PITA journey through residential streets (if I want to go to this block).

            Now is not the time to be studying a potential solution. That should have been done before the original plan was made and definitely before it was implemented. Phase I should never negatively effect people without an alternative. A reasonable phase I would have been to use temp comes on the weekend to block traffic for the market (or better yet find a better place for the market than a major street).

            I still see a lack of transparency and selfish planning as a major part of this problem.

          • tmda

            I apologize, study and planning were a bad choice of words, which I blame on my brain not wanting to think about word usage before bed. What I meant was that the city manager implied that a more permanent solution would be implemented when a plan was presented.

            The original plan was to have a medical office building completely block the street right at Alter and Kercheval. The plan has obviously been modified since then, and I imagine will continue as development does.

            As for a lack of transparency, what more should a city do than discuss the project for over a year in city council, planning commission, and parks and recreation committee meetings, along with publishing items in the city newsletter, posting items on their website, and making the necessary notices of meetings in newspapers? It’s not a lack of transparency, it’s a lack of people taking an interest until after the fact.

          • new_detroit

            Posting right before bed, always fun 🙂

            The problem is that the official document you linked to explicitly stated that the design provides for through traffic and that the full blockade was just temporary during construction. That’s not what they built, so no amount of community involvement given the data provided would have been useful.

          • tmda

            Yes, and now I’m posting before my 85 minutes run, which is just as fun.

            (as an aside, I made another post earlier this morning about blight which apparently has disappeared. I wonder if there is a more stringent approval process for comments if a link is included?) oh well.

            Anyway, if I want to get technical, it’s not a full blockade in that there is no way to get to Kercheval again from the area west of the curb enclosure/barns. It’s impeded and diverted, true, but I cannot say how or if this is going to be modified in the future. In fact, the City of Detroit should probably just close that short section of Kercheval east of Alter and do something community-based with the area. It’s something I have been thinking about personally since this project has come along in it’s current iteration.

  • Lamont

    notice the map. move the barn next to the white bldg on top, split the border straight down alter alley, and give detroit parking rights in exchange for the lost tax revenue from the detroit businesses lost in the current line.

  • Stephan Palazzolo

    Detroit’s black preachers have failed in most of their endeavors so why not stir this issue up. Detroit cant function and they build a stadium, a rail cho cho and threaten this litigation? Seroiusly.

    • new_detroit

      This story did not even mention black preachers. Your comment is racist and tiresome. Your ignorant commentary adds nothing here.

  • MiR

    But, he added: “Of course, we understand that Detroit has more pressing matters” and better uses for its “precious funds.”

    Levasseur sure sounds like a rich bully using his money to force his neighbor to acquiesce to his will. I’m glad Detroit is speaking up.

    • Oberyn_Martell

      Levasseur is a city prosecutor and makes no city planning decisions. Although his point had glaring overtones of common sense which I can see is offensive.

      • new_detroit

        His point had glaring overtones of media spin extortion. He didn’t address the real negatives brought about by this blockade but instead attacked a fully unrelated issue in a classic (and cheap) move to discredit his opponent.

        Of course Detroit has a right to try to fix this problem that a group of small insiders created in secret without wider community input!

        • Oberyn_Martell

          For a transplant ruin porn expert you sure seem to think you know a lot about the neighborhood. You should stick to marveling at other people’s misfortune.

          • new_detroit

            My views are just as valid as any other resident. You’re not adding anything to this conversation. Care to explain why his so called “common sense” would be offensive?

          • Oberyn_Martell

            It is common sense because as much as you say it it doesn’t actually make it true that it is a “major” access point. The area across Alter is sparsely populated and the plant cuts off access from downtown so most people coming from the other side so they are typically taking other routes if they are coming at all. Not sure if you know this but GP isn’t exactly a major destination for the Metro Detroit area. For the bankrupt city to spend money prosecuting this is in fact a disservice to 99% of Detroit residents this in no way affects. And saying this affects 1% of Detroiters is probably being generous. The city has a lot of other more important things to focus its limited resources on. Ask Bebow I’m pretty sure he would rather they spend it protecting his neighborhood.

          • new_detroit

            Obviously it IS affecting a lot of people negatively or this wouldn’t be such a hot issue. I’m glad Detroit isn’t just rolling over and leaving its citizens out to dry.

            It’s you that keeps putting your fingers in your ears and repeating “this is a non issue!”. People (besides me) are upset by this. It needs to be taken seriously.

          • Oberyn_Martell

            Hahah ok bud. There’s a big difference between people calling racism and people actually physically being affected. But as you say.

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

            I award you no points.

            Come up with an estimate of the amount of non-GP people this is affecting, please. Also let’s be clear, by “affecting” you of course mean having to drive a block in either direction.

          • new_detroit

            By affecting I mean no longer spending my money on businesses on that block.

          • tmda

            How much influence should citizens of one representative democracy have over the government of another representative democracy?

            If a majority of Grosse Pointe Park citizens are for the project, should it matter if 100% of Detroit citizens are against it? I’d contend it shouldn’t.

            It could even possibly be the downfall of the commercial district in Grosse Pointe Park (in this hypothetical situation), but it’s still Grosse Pointe Park’s decision to make. If not, then Michigan should just abolish all forms of local government and run everything on the state level. It may be inefficient, but it would cause these things to never happen.

          • new_detroit

            It’s about urban planning. Detroit and GPP are all part of the Detroit metro area. It makes no sense to wall off neighborhoods. This blockade is a failure in that respect.

          • Oberyn_Martell

            Are you this upset about Palmer Woods blocking several access points through the neighborhood? Detroit also funded 300k of the construction to do it.

          • new_detroit

            I’m sure I would be if I had to drive through there. Wikipedia tells me Palmer Woods is an affluent neighboorhood so if what you say is true, sounds very similar to what’s going on in GPP (although I would consider GPP middle class not affluent).

            I have no problem calling Detroit out if/when it does something stupid. In this case it’s GPP in the wrong so I’m glad Detroit is stepping up to do something about it.

          • Oberyn_Martell

            Well I assure you it’s true and more to the point Detroit felt it was such a great idea they helped fund the closures for the wealthy neighborhood. Also I wouldn’t be so glad yet. They haven’t done anything to date. They are mulling over options. Don’t be surprised if the resolution is some slight modifications or nothing at all.

          • new_detroit

            Well then yes, I think that’s dumb on many levels. It’s a waste of money for one and I have zero respect for wealthy communities that feel the need to segregate those of a different socioeconomic make up.

            I’m holding off my pessimism on Detroit’s response to this until I see it since I’m new here. I will not defend any stupid decisions they make though.

          • Oberyn_Martell

            I’m sure it will shock you learn that I have no issue with their decision in Palmer Woods I merely bring it up to point out the hypocrisy of the situation. I’m not for putting up checkpoints but I do believe it makes sense to protect viable neighborhoods from blight creep. Detroit needs all kinds of residents. They need people like you who don’t mind urban decay, they need young professionals living in urban cores, they need the artist community living in lofts and gritty areas and they also need middle and upperclass families. There are actually many desirable neighborhoods in Detroit for well off families and Palmer Woods being one of them. Unfortunately these neighborhoods are surrounded by huge swaths of blight and crime because of lack of resources to maintain them. Nobody is saying people aren’t allowed in the neighborhoods but taking small measures to make people feel safer living there and raising families there is important. Residents of Palmer Woods don’t pay dues for 24 hour security guards because it makes them feel fancy. There are real problems surrounding their neighborhood.

          • new_detroit

            I understand and appreciate what you’re saying but integration, not segregation is the key to lowering crime all over the city. There are European cities that mix council estates (housing projects) with multi-million dollar condos and the result is a lively, healthy community that poor and rich families, artists, professionals and everyone else safely enjoy.

            Americans tend to fear the poor, but a bit more compassion and bravery would do our communities a lot of good and increase everyone’s quality of life.

          • Oberyn_Martell

            I 1000 percent agree with that approach and it makes a lot of sense especially in the more urban core areas. However there just isn’t a lot of resources or critical mass around some of these mostly residential neighborhoods.

          • new_detroit

            I think the free market will solve this in the long run. Cheap housing will attract people until it’s no longer cheap 🙂 Government interference (say blocking off roads) will not help the situation though.

  • Jack Ramsey

    Could you elaborate on this statement: “Grosse Pointe Park has closed off at least six roads at the border of Detroit near Alter, and some of the remaining streets are one-way.” How recent are those closures? Some have been closed for years.

    • muckraker_steve

      Jack, some of those were closed years ago.

      • Jack Ramsey

        That would be my point–if all except for the recent Kercheval closure have been closed for years, it seems much less like some freshly brewed conspiracy.

        • muckraker_steve

          I don’t disagree with you. Those spots on the map were included only to show the streets that were closed off between Mack and Jefferson on Kercheval. They weren’t intended to suggest a conspiracy.

          • tmda

            There probably should be a distinction of which city closed which road, as of now, it appears as if Grosse Pointe Park has closed them all. Just a thought.

  • Josh

    The Southfield Freeway, The Davison, Grand River, Woodward, Jefferson, Fort Street are all examples of popular, and historical, roads.

    One would be generous to call Kercheval a four lane road. And the section of Kercheval that relates to this story stretches for about a mile, and ends at a Chrysler plant. It’s not exactly a bustling thoroughfare.

    Also, I don’t know if it is so much historical, as just old.

    There are a lot of valid discussions to be had about the relationship between Detroit and Grosse Pointe Park. To be sure, many people are probably motivated by racism. But to be sure, a lot of crime does spill into Grosse Pointe Park from Detroit. Personally, I don’t think either city has been the best neighbor they could be to the other. I can definitely understand someone on the Detroit side feeling aggrieved. But it’s also not as if GPP erected a Checkpoint Charlie style border crossing in the middle of Jefferson.

    This is a complex story that deserves attention and consideration. What doesn’t help is sensationalism, hyperbole, and exaggeration. Which is territory that I feel your reporting often ventures into.

    • “To be sure, many people are probably motivated by racism.”

      In percentage terms, what do you think it would be?

      This is the thing that really gets me, because a lot of people mistake classicism for racism. What do I mean? Well, if we were to magically turn the neighboring areas of GP white, but left intact their current socio-economic status most of the people in GP wouldn’t change their opinion of their neighbors. I might go so far as to say, none of them would.

      It’s more about the haves and the have-nots than black and white. GP kids don’t go into Detroit to steal bicycles because they have bicycles to steal at home. Whereas Detroit kids do come over the border to steal bicycles because they don’t have them to steal. When you look at the maters rationally, things make more sense. However, when you superimpose race into it everyone gets all uppity.

      I bet you the percentage of people who are “for” it because of abject racism is outweighed by the percentage that’s opposed to it because of white guilt.

      In reality, I think it’s a net benefit to everyone. Except me, because it added like 3-minutes to my commute to the boat and I don’t care for families milling about buying flowers and crap.

      However, I am enjoying the “controversy”.

      • Josh

        I agree that it is also about class. Detroit is an interesting city, because of the racial makeup of the city and the suburbs. And I think the two are going to be linked for a long time. Sure, you can say it’s about class now, but when the problem started, it was white people leaving the city, and most of the suburbs did everything they could to keep minorities out. We helped create a situation where a group of people were left in the city with very few resources. I’m not saying it’s all the suburbs/whites fault, but we share in some of the blame.

        I was at the bar a week ago, and there was a group of people talking about the border. One drunk girl in her twenties was offended that people wanted to make this all about race. Then she proceeded to talk about “the blacks” doing this and that for the next ten minutes. It would have been funny if it weren’t so sad.

        • Guest

          Are you gpforlife on Reddit also? Because if so, we’ve talked before.

        • bebow

          Social class rarely changes. Are you sure it’s social class? Might it not be ignorant, criminal behavior that offends? The drunk girl – what was her social class assignment?

          • Josh

            If it was a border between two poor neighborhoods, I doubt one would have the option of constructing a turnaround and a farmers market. So, yes, I do feel social class is a factor. As I said, I don’t think it’s the sole cause. This issue is complex, but I certainly don’t think the division of wealth between Detroit and GPP can be ignored.

            As for the young drunk girl in a Grosse Pointe hangout talking about “the blacks”, I would say your guess about her social class is as good as mine.

        • The whole we helped create this mess argument and the implication that we have some responsibility in fixing it, is paternalistic, white guilt, crap.

          White flight wasn’t even the start of the decline of Detroit. The decline was not precipitous. White flight didn’t help, but wasn’t the cause. The City of Detroit has a great deal of resources, even today. Sadly, it has employed those resources in a terrible and ineffectual manner for generations. The bankruptcy will be a clean slate and I hope they don’t fuck it up.

          I understand how easy it is to look across the border and see only black people and come to the conclusion that all black people are the same as the ones I see. It’s the same overgeneralization that I make when I am traveling to another city in America and think “why are there so few black people”. I always end up reminding myself that black people only make up 13% of the American population. Even writing that, it blows my mind!

          All of that is pretty irrelevant, because I am pretty sure GPP didn’t just decide to build a farmer’s market “to keep the blacks out”. I mean, come on? As far as barriers go, how effective is it?

          • Josh

            White flight wasn’t the start of the decline of Detroit, but it certainly helped. And while there are some resources in Detroit, the notion that there are anywhere near the resources there that there are in the suburbs is laughable. You went to South, I’m guessing. How many highschools in Detroit can match it for resources? How many fellow students did you take classes with? How old were your text books? Did you have regular access to a computer? How safe was your walk home? Did your family ever need to call 911, and if so, how many minutes did it take for them to get there?

            I’m not saying that you need to feel bad for being born with a leg up, but I think you should at least acknowledge it.

            And I don’t think the barn was built solely to keep Detroiters out (or to keep black people out), but I do know for a fact that there are plenty of people that are fine with it if it does, or that even hope it does. I know this because I have had candid talks with a lot of people. This isn’t something I’m guessing at. This is something I know.

            And I don’t feel a personal blame for the current state of Detroit. I wasn’t here for it. But, I have certainly reaped the benefits of growing up in areas with more (or, if it makes you happy, better use of its) resources. I don’t think it’s our sole responsibility to fix Detroit, but I think it is only humane to help. If my neighbor’s house was on fire, I don’t have to help him either, but I think it would be kind of shitty of me not to.

          • new_detroit

            This is a GREAT comment. You can feel “the wink” in many comments here, I can only imagine the same thing to a greater degree in a more private setting.

            Shockingly it’s not even that subtle, like the guy talking about “white guilt”…

          • We’re pretty much on the same page.

            Also, to be clear, I want a thriving and vibrant Detroit. For the first time in my life, it looks like things will move that way. It’s going to take a generation to get the neighborhoods back, but I think it will happen.

      • Josh

        Are you gpforlife on Reddit also?

        If so, we’ve chatted before (good chats).

      • bebow

        When I was poor, I wasn’t an ignorant thief. You may see poor Detroiters crossing the border to commit crimes, but you’re not seeing all poor Detroiters doing it.

        • I wasn’t trying to imply that. The criminal element is just that, an element. The element is statistically more likely to be found in poorer communities, but it doesn’t mean all poor people are criminals. In fact, most poor people aren’t criminals. Just like how most people aren’t criminals. Inferential statistics can predict the make up of a subset of a group, but it can’t predict the character of an individual.

          Also, see my reply above about why one would steal from rich people as opposed to poor people. Premise is the same reason you don’t read a lot about coin-operated laundries getting held up but you do see jewelry stores getting robbed.

          Just to be clear, I like you and if I offended you it wasn’t my intent, and I apologize.

          • bebow

            Thank you, GP, for making yourself clear.

      • new_detroit

        Wasn’t there a recent story about GP teens going into Detroit to graffiti downtown? You shouldn’t be so quick to label teen residents of either city as inherent criminals.

        Also, race and class are inexorably linked when particular races have been systematically discriminated against for generations. Equal opportunity (the reality, not the program) are very new if they even exist today.

        A broader historical perspective would add a lot to this discussion.

        • First, those teens probably went to North. Which doesn’t have anything to do with your comment, but I never miss a chance to bash North. South pride, baby!

          Now onto the crux of your argument about labeling. If you reread what I wrote, you’ll notice that I mention that GP kids steal bikes too. The differentiation I made is about where they steal them. The point, that you failed to grasp, is that when you’re looking to commit crimes for personal financial gain rich people are better targets. It’s just common sense. Rich people have better things to steal hence why some people come to GP to steal.

          I don’t care to engage you on your other points.

          • new_detroit

            Unless you have some data supporting your argument that Detroit teens come to GP to steal bikes, then you’re just spouting hot air. You tell me to come up with data to prove Detroiters are being effected by the blockade (I know I am, so there’s one point) but you just pull your claims out of thin air.

          • Dude, I don’t understand how you can continually miss the thrust of these statements. Is this genuine confusion or are you just trying to pick one statement and twist it so you can argue about it? If it’s genuine confusion, I’ll try to clear it up.

  • Does this seem kind of childish to anyone else?

  • bebow

    I don’t think Grosse Pointers are trying to keep Detroiters in general out of their city by erecting this bulwark at the border. They are probably focused on protecting their residents and properties from criminals. I have contemplated various fencing/barrier options myself to serve that purpose, some of them would appear quite extreme in a neighborhood setting. The only thing stopping me from executing the extreme solution is the strong possibility of leaving. I don’t want to waste money. Slow, inadequate action is starting on the blight, but the crime situation remains as bad as hell. That’s an unfortunate fact. Maybe the city should stop worrying about the notch and get focused, like Grosse Pointers, on protecting decent residents and properties from criminals before we all move somewhere else.

  • muckraker_steve

    We are enforcing a new comment policy. No insults, no instigating, no blanket statements about Detroiters or Grosse Pointers. If you don’t wish to take part in a meaningful dialogue, please choose another website. Thanks so very much!

    • new_detroit

      Really glad you’re taking these steps Steve. Your reporting and the stories you cover are excellent and provide a much needed independent perspective. Unfortunately a lot of the comments didn’t match your high editorial standard and instead read like racist high schoolers letting lose. Looking forward to the greatly enhanced conversation quality.

  • MickinDetroit

    It’s not “based on the notch. If it were the “notch” (that doesn’t exist) the entire thing would be in Detroit. the only thing inside detroit PER DETROIT’S OWN SURVEYORS is a 6 inch portion of curb. Steve, your agenda is showing.

    • muckraker_steve

      The notch exists. The city acknowledged it exists. Government and tax records indicate the notch exists. It’s a fact. Sorry.

      • RadioRon

        But while the notch does exist Steve, you continue to use your original photo from several weeks ago that is inaccurate in its depiction of the boarder. Perhaps you could update all of your information to be accurate so people reading and commenting would be reliably informed.

        • muckraker_steve

          Radio, no one has made a final determination on the border. No one. Not even GPP. Detroit is unwilling to acknowledge that those marks in the Freep were even drawn by the city. I understand that your passion on this issue, but no one has made a definitive decision yet. As soon as one is made, we will be very quick to write about it.

          • RadioRon

            While maybe not a definitive decision, the information presented in yours and the freeps article would show something pretty close. If surveyors from the City of Detroit (the aggrieved party) come out and mark where they think the boarder is, and it pretty much matches where GPP says the boarder is, and it pretty much matches the legal descriptions and court decision that have occurred in the past, I’m guessing, within inches, that’s where the boarder is. Then we look at the photo you have been using since your first article and it in no way matches the above. I am, by the way, still looking for the list of one-way streets along Alter between the two cities.
            Steve, I guess my biggest disappointment is that I have read your site for a long time and have always assumed that you were a dedicated investigative reporter. Now I see with articles about something that I have personal knowledge of that you seem to play fast and lose with facts when they are convenient to you, and when given differing information appear to disregard it without any attempt at verification or correction. I can only assume that the other articles on your site are researched and verified in the same way. I am sorry to say you appear to be just another “media” outlet interested in getting the scoop rather than the facts.

          • muckraker_steve

            How are you even remotely involved with this project? I respect and appreciate what you are saying. But both cities do not agree on where the border is. You are just wrong about that. I seriously have no idea where you are getting your information, but you are making arguments based on myths.

          • RadioRon

            “I seriously have no idea where you are getting your information, but you are making arguments based on myths”.

            I am basing it on personal knowledge (not worth anything to you I know), the free press article you cite that gives Detroit’s surveyors opinion of boarder location, my research into plat maps and the courts decision in RESIDENTS OF WEST SIDE OF WAYBURN STREET v. CITY OF DETROIT Docket No. 49940. 109 Mich. App. 321 (1981) 311 N.W.2d 765 that was affirm by the Michigan Supreme Court in 1982.

            So how about changing your depiction of the boarder to agree with Detroit surveyors, plat maps, the Free Press, and court decisions, not the wholly incorrect picture you have posted now.
            Also, again I ask what are the one way streets you refer to in the above article.

      • RadioRon

        Also, please correct the last line of the above article or provide information the supports the claim.
        “Grosse Pointe Park has closed off at least six roads at the border of Detroit near Alter, and some of the remaining streets are one-way”.
        It is only five streets you cite. Windmill Pointe was closed by Detroit when they rebuild the bridge from Alter Rd to Riverside Dr. Also, none of the “remaining street” are one way.

      • MickinDetroit

        The “notch” is nowhere near where you drew your line. Detroit’s own surveyors have shown that.